Mestizo

Miniseries E2 - Tracing the Legacy of the Cross

I.

What do we do when the frame of meaning that orients world is disrupted, and we discover a violent underside lurking behind what were once meaningful symbols?  

My name is Colton Bernasol, a friend and essay contributor for World Outspoken. I am a follower of Jesus, somebody who believes that Jesus’s teachings, way of life, crucifixion, and resurrection reveal the presence of God in our world. But I also know what it is like to struggle existentially with losing sight of the Good News to which the Christian symbols point. This terrifying loss of apprehension is, as a I described in the last episode, a “symbolic devastation,” a devastation that results from the role Christian symbols have in injustices like colonialism, white supremacy, US nationalism, and the harm these injustices have caused in both the past and the present.[1]

Symbolic devastation is an experience we undergo when the potentially liberating meaning of Christian symbols is lost, and the symbol becomes a religious means to justify domination. The very symbol itself seems to give religious sanction to this injustice. And this raises questions: How do symbols get devastated in the first place? What does it feel like to experience the death of the meaning of the symbols we cherish? And how might we re-encounter the liberating meaning of these symbols after their silence?

In this episode, I want to consider these questions from the viewpoint of one symbol: the cross. We wear the cross on our necks, we gesture the cross while we pray, and crosses are often set atop roofs or burrowed into the ground to mark a building as a church. Beyond that, the cross is an important symbol of Jesus’s crucifixion, it is the means by which the Roman empire tortured and murdered somebody they believed to be a rouser of rebellion. Once a symbol of Roman domination, it had been subverted and remade to signify the Christian conviction that oppression, torture, and murder cannot overcome the love and life of God. Despite the gritty hope of this primary meaning, it is also a symbol that has been weaponized for purposes of domination. Because of this, it is a symbol that often invokes the devastation I’m attempting to describe.

We need to begin in 1492, in the first moments of the so-called discovery of the New World, when European explorers and colonizers arrived on the shores of the Caribbean, only to extend their stays in the mainland of the Americas. It is there that we can begin to see with concrete details of why symbolic devastation occurs.

II.

Columbus was undeterred by the great swell of ocean that separated Europe from the unknown, with its titan size, calamitous waves, and unending bluegrey horizon. A passionate and courageous sailor, no doubt, he took his crew and embarked upon these trepid and punishing waters with every goal in mind to find a route — the route — to Asia.[2] But Columbus did not find Asia. Instead, he charted a path to a world yet unknown to Europe. He landed upon the shores of what we now call the Americas. His captain, Gonzalo de Fernandez de Oviedo, described Columbus as “the prime mover of a great enterprise.”[3] And de Oviedo is certainly correct. Columbus launched the beginning of a European movement across the Atlantic, one that would transform Europe and the Americas alike — drawing them together in an inextricable link of migration, mission, and exploitation. Missionaries, settlers, and conquistadors followed Columbus, equally undisturbed by the risk of ocean voyage, and crashed upon unfamiliar lands, with every intent of making it their own.

Columbus carried the cross with him. This is depicted in an illustration that accompanied a letter Columbus wrote to the king describing his journey to this world yet unknown to Europeans. In the illustration, the ship that sails toward the Americas bares the symbol of the cross.[4] 

On his third journey, Columbus planted a cross wherever he visited, proclaiming and, in another sense, enacting Spanish expansion. “I have a tall cross erected on each cape, and I proclaim your Highnesses’ greatness to all the people informing them that you are lords of Spain,” writes Columbus in a letter detailing his third journey across the Atlantic.[5] In the letter he explains with utmost excitement that he has shared the Gospel with the Indigenous peoples. On the one hand, we cannot dismiss the heartfelt seriousness with which Columbus engages his evangelism. He couldn’t do otherwise as an explorer whose self-understanding is thoroughly Christian. But the faith he shares is tainted, obscured by the interests of greed and empire. Earlier in the letter he writes with eagerness about seeing the indigenous people wearing pearls and gold on their necks. “I was delighted by this sight,” Columbus tells us, “and tried hard to discover where they found these pearls.”[6] Evangelism, for Columbus, is tied to plunder. The symbols of the faith join imperial greed and desire for resources. In A Violent Evangelism: The Political and Religious Conquest of the Americas, Luis N. Rivera Pagan says that in the colonial era, “hidden behind the evangelizing cross, faintly veiled, was the conquering sword.”[7] Rivera-Pagan is certainly right in his analysis.

Of course, Columbus is not the only explorer who made use of the symbol. The explorer Alvar Núñez Cabeza de Vaca proclaimed land possession by building a church and erecting a large cross, growing the Spanish empire by drawing regions of Central America into it.[8] And the infamous Hernán Cortés named one of his settlements “City of the True Cross.”[9] When the Spanish wanted to survey South America to get a sense of their newly growing imperial hinterland, maps were illustrated with settlements depicted by simple line drawings of churches with a cross stationed on their roof.[10] Walter Mingolo, known decolonial scholar, points out that indigenous map makers would often paint these church buildings around the edges of the map, an implicit way of signifying the Spanish empire’s ever-expanding reach to grab and take possession of their homeland.[11]

The 16th century intellectual Guamán Poma de Ayala, himself the child of the colonial era, being of both indigenous and Spanish heritage, painted a series of panels depicting this moment in history. One painting feature a map with churches on it, the main feature marking the illustrated buildings being a cross.[12] At first glance, and outside of context, the image appears theologically neutral. It is merely a map. But the neutrality ends the moment one situates those images within the story of ecclesial abuse, which is thoroughly narrated by Guamán Poma in The First New Chronicle and Good Government, his theological history of Inca society before and after the conquests. There, he has an extended treatment on the abuses of the priest. Here is Guamán Poma’s own words on clerical exploitation: “The padres and priests oversee the making of cloth … to sell, claiming that the cloth is for their prelates. They tell their managers to order the poor Indians to make the cloth, employing them without paying them anything at all, throughout the kingdom.”[13]

Like the Spanish, French and English settlers planted crosses as they encroached upon Indigenous lands. This happened on the coasts of Maryland and as far North as Gaspe Bay, in what is now modern-day Quebec. Historian Susan Juster found a testimony from settler colonists that the cross had become so wedded to land possession that indigenous leaders would make a sign of the cross with their hand while pointing to the landscapes they called home.[14] The point? They had learned that for European settlers, the cross was not merely about God, but God and the dispossession of their homeland.

We can search through history and find these moments when the cross becomes deeply woven into a history of violence.

The 19th century saw the rise of the Klu Klux Klan. And today, the flaming cross is their hallmark symbol, provoking an ideology of white supremacy in an ever-increasing multiethnic United States. The flaming cross not only represents the Klan’s desire for a White dominated future, but also draws to mind their nostalgic view of the past, in which the accountability that White people have is only to themselves. Beyond the Klan, the cross has become tethered to a larger White Christian nationalist movement. It has been appropriated to signify the dream of an exclusionary United States undergirded by a Divine power supporting white rule and superiority. Today, it can be difficult to see the cross as anything but the symbolic projection of a White nationalist consciousness.

In Chicagoland, where I grew up, it is easy to think that the colonial history of the cross has nothing to do with the church where I was raised, separated as they are by five centuries. But that fails to account for history’s living consequences. The church itself sits upon the land home to the Council of Three Fires. But to invoke the home of the first peoples, however, is also to invoke an absence, for even if this land is their home, the church has not in any materially significant way recognized it as such. The land of the Council of Three Fires is marked by a violent history of the cross. A white cross is burroughed into the ground and a magnificent church building takes up a cluster of land that could fill a few blocks of a Chicagoland subdivision. So even where there is a seeming indifference, the cross appears to signify the consequences of colonialism by its sheer placement into the earth — it invokes those other colonial cross planters: Columbus, Cabeza de Vaca, Cortez, and others. We do not have the suburbs, sprawling megachurches, property ownership, and middleclass consumerism without conquest – a conquest marked by the cross.

The symbol of the cross has a history. And part of that history is its use by colonial missionaries and conquistadors who believed in a divine pronouncement that the lands of North and South America belong to them. Burroughed into the soil of the Americas, the cross stood in for power and control, as it became linked to and a signifier for imperial gain. If, for the gospels, the cross represents Jesus’s life and its tragic end by Rome, that meaning has transfigured. In the US, the cross serves less as a reminder of Jesus’s fellowship with the poor into an excruciating death, and more as a reminder of the desire for power and control. I cannot understate the implications that follow from the journey of the cross as it made its way to the New World and how its many interpretations evolved over time.

III.

This history exposes the roots behind symbolic devastation. The cross’s tie to colonialism devastates the cross’s meaning and our ability to apprehend it. As I mentioned last episode, symbols like the cross are potent with liberating meaning for the world, entry ways into discovering the revelation of a God whose love reaches out and embraces all of creaturely life. But access to such meaning is often lost because the symbols which narrate this story are tied so closely to injustice. The “well of meaning,” to use philosopher Paul Ricouer’s language, is plugged by the history of violent misuse, redirecting the symbol’s signification to ideologies of imperial power.

To experience symbolic devastation is to face an abyss that turns a symbol meant to invoke Good News into a sign of death. It is to encounter the distance between a lifegiving interpretation and an unintegrated, desperate, and traumatized past and present to which the symbol points. Symbolic devastation is characterized by closure, haunting indifference, and unmet longing. Resonance disappears in the encounter of an imperial appropriation of what was an anti-imperial symbol. 

We end this episode on a sober note. It is important that we move slowly through a history that cuts through language and fills us with grief. Devastation arises from the history of the violent uses of the cross — violence found in Columbus, Cortez, Spanish, French, and British colonialism, the Klu Klux Klan, and the suburban indifference found among many middle-class Christians who worship the God of the cross while forgetting that they do so on the land of the council of three fires.

So questions are raised: how might we recover the meaning of the cross? How might the symbol bear witness to the Good News taught and lived by Jesus of Nazareth, empowered as he was by the God spoken of in the Hebrew Scriptures?

We turn to these questions next.

Blessings until next time.

Episode Copyright 2022 - World Outspoken. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.worldoutspoken.com for more information.


Episode Credits:

Writer and Host: Colton Bernasol

Music by Lucas Manning

Producer: Lucas Manning

Executive Producer: Emanuel Padilla

Support the Mestizo Podcast by giving today.

Have a question you want answered on the podcast? Leave us a message at 312-725-2995. Leave us a 30 second voicemail with your name, city, y pregunta and we’ll discuss it on the last episode of the season. You can also submit a question using the form on this page.

Merch: Whether you want a t-shirt, hoodie, baby onesie, journal, mug, or sticker, tenemos un poquito de todo. My favorite is the recently released "Product of Abuela's Prayers" crewneck, celebrating the theology we inherit from nuestras Abuelitas. Check out our New merch store by visiting our store.

Courses: Want to take courses that prepare you to face the challenges of doing ministry in the hyphen? Visit learn.worldoutspoken.com today and enroll in one of our newest courses.

About Colton Bernasol

Colton Bernasol is an editor and writer from Plainfield, Illinois, a Southwest suburb in the Chicagoland area. He graduated from Wheaton College with a BA in Philosophy and Biblical/Theological Studies and from Garrett-Evangelical Theological Seminary with an MA in Theology and Ethics. He writes at the intersection of religion, society, and culture. Currently, he lives in Chicagoland with his wife Anna. Sign up for his newsletter, Provisional.


Footnotes

[1] Colton R. Bernasol, "Theology After Symbolic Devastation: Method in the Liberation Theologies of Juan Luis Segundo, Jon Sobrino, and M. Shawn Copeland." Order No. 29162635, Garrett-Evangelical Theological Seminary, 2022. http://turing.library.northwestern.edu/login?url=https://www.proquest.com/dissertations-theses/theology-after-symbolic-devastation-method/docview/2675665905/se-2. These podcast episodes draws on research and writing I’ve done for my master’s thesis. 

[2] J.M. Cohen, “Introduction,” in The Four Voyages of Christopher Columbus (Penguin UK, 2004), 12.

[3] Gonzalo Fernandez de Oviedo, “General and Natural History of the Indies by Captain Gonzalo Fernandez de Oviedo,” in The Four Voyages of Christopher Columbus, ed. J.M. Cohen (Penguin UK, 2004), 27.

[4] Luis N. Rivera, A Violent Evangelism: The Political and Religious Conquest of the Americas (Westminster John Knox Press, 1992), 8.

[5] Christopher Columbus, “Narrative of the Third Voyage of Christopher Columbus to the Indies, in which He Discovered the Mainland, Dispatched the Sovereigns from the Island of Hispaniola,” in The Four Voyages of Christopher Columbus, 251.

[6] Ibid., 213.

[7] Rivera, A Violent Evangelism, 9.

[8] Franciso Morales Padrón in “Comentarios de Alvar Nuñez Cabeza de Vaca, Adelantado y Gobernado del Río de la Plata,” in Naufragios y comentarios (1552), by Alvar Nuñez Cabeza de Vaca (Mexico, D.F.L Editorial Porrúa), quoted in A Violent Evangelism, 14.

[9] Robin M. Jensen, The Cross: History, Art, and Controversy (Harvard University Press, 2017), 207.

[10] See Howard F. Cline, “The Relaciones Geográficas of the Spanish Indies, 1577-1586,” Hispanic American Historical Review 44, no. 3 (August 1, 1964): 341–74, https://doi.org/10.1215/00182168-44.3.341, 341.

[11] Walter Mignolo,The Darker Side of the Renaissance: Literacy, Territoriality, and Colonization (University of Michigan Press, 2003), 306–7, 309.

[12] Mingolo, The Darker Side of the Renaissance, 310.

[13] Felipe Guaman Poma De Ayala, The First New Chronicle and Good Government, abridged, ed. and trans. by David Frye (Hacket Publishing Company, Inc., 2006), 208.

[14] Susan Juster, “Planting the ‘Great Cross’: The Life, and Death, of Crosses in English America,” The William and Mary Quarterly 74, no. 2 (2017): 241.

Miniseries E1 - Losing the Liberating Meaning of Christian Symbols

I.

Five years have passed since I left the church that raised me. It was not all bad memories, though the most meaningful moments weren’t the regular services either.[1]

While I was in high school, every Thursday evening, a group of friends met me at an old church building to read and study the Bible together. It was a dingey building, ignored by most everyone else in the church, the once-used building that the church had outgrown decades ago, having since become a megachurch. But it was a special place to me. It was where the biblical texts came to life. There I felt the freedom to read, question, and be questioned by these texts. And despite the smallness of the room, I felt immersed in the biblical worlds. The priestly creation hymn of Genesis; John’s confession that God is enfleshed in a person from the countryside of Palestine — these stories brought me face to face with the reality unleashed by God.

In that forgotten room I learned that the biblical texts are filled with symbols that point to the love of God. Jesus is the symbol of God’s unique presence in the world. Of course, Jesus is both a symbol and more than a symbol. But he is symbolic insofar as his life points to a transcendent love that preceedes the beginning of all things, a love that brings all creaturely life into existence, and a love who so adores creation that it would take up flesh and bone, become human, and preach a message of freedom to those ensnared in a world a violence and hate. This is a love unconquerable by death.

Symbols invite interpretation of the world. Their graphic imagery gives meaningful shape to everyday life. They etch themselves into consciousness so thoroughly that when we encounter a symbol a whole set of meanings is invoked. Our world, put simply, is experienced as symbolic.

But the meaning of symbols can be redirected, their truly liberating significance lost. The church I grew up in was a megachurch founded during the late 1960s during a time of tremendous social turmoil. Martin Luther King, Jr. was assassinated a few years after the church was founded. And in Colombia, Bishops of the Roman Catholic Church met in Medellín to discuss what relationship the gospel had to the economic oppression of the poor, a conversation that would be fundamental to the development of a movement known as liberation theology. But I don’t remember these movements within Christianity being significant to the theology of the church. What I remember is a theology that invoked symbols like God’s salvation, the Holy Spirit, and the cross all the while being indifferent to much of the injustice around us. I remember fellow congregants expressing unabashed support for Donald Trump; and I remember mostly indifference toward police violence against black life. The reality of God’s salvation, it appeared to me, made no claim on the racism and racist violence in which I was raised.

Stretching two stories tall, my church placed a cross at the front of their building and cast light on it at night so that you could see it from the road. The cross marked the building as a church. But it also signified more than that. To me, the cross signified an American Christianity indifferent to the injustice, an indifference gave way to callousness and allowed nationalist sentiment to flourish.

II.

Today what many see when they encounter Christian symbols, especially of Jesus and the cross, is an indifferent and unjust Christianity. Due to a history of injustice and misuse, the symbols of Christian faith have been ruined for so many. The result of that ruin is what can be described as a symbolic devastation. In the experience of symbolic devastation, we can lose sight of a symbol’s liberating meaning and the symbol itself becomes silent. There is a temptation to abandon the symbol altogether.

The reason for symbolic devastation of Christian symbols arises from the fact that these symbols have a long-cemented history of misuse. In the Americas, Christian symbols have been called upon to justify all manner of wrongdoings: from conquest and indigenous genocide in the colonial era, to White nationalism in the early American era and today, and to the suburban megachurches who aspire after wealth and middleclass stability while ignoring the violent history of the past which made possible our present moment. At this point, the misuse of Christian symbols carried across this history has become a genuine, even if mutilated, tradition, a foul collective habit of appropriating the stories of Israel and Jesus to advance land conquest, capitalist greed, and cultural destruction. Normalized and internalized, the interpretive practice of abusing Christian symbols is the reason for devastation that so many of us experience.

One consequence of symbolic devastation has been more public conversation around the need to “deconstruct” the Christian faith. Christian leaders and intellectuals have both lauded and critiqued the usefulness of deconstruction. Ultimately, however, I see the call for theological deconstruction as an outcome of symbolic devastation. The question is not whether one should deconstruct the symbols of Christian faith, but how to recover an encounter with the liberating meaning of Christian symbols after symbolic devastation has left us with nothing but silence.

To put it another way, deconstruction is an option; symbolic devastation is not. We do not choose to be devastated, rather we undergo it. Deconstruction is the necessary step afterward, where we try to understand why and how symbols are used to give religious credence to the unjust world we continue to build.

So far, I have described what appears to be a rather linear process: symbols at first are not devastated and then become devastated. But perhaps it is better to think of the process as occurring differently depending on our relationship to the symbol.

For some, the devastation is all one knows. The symbol does nothing but signify and justify the violence in which we all live, move, and have our being. This is the case for intellectuals such as Franz Fanon who claims that the church represents nothing more but “the ways of the colonizer.” We could read Karl Marx in this way, who believes that religion is nothing other than an ideological justification behind the unequal social order that the bourgeoisie have built. Illuminating as these two figures are, they are resigned to religion’s liberating possibilities.

Others stagger back and forth, carrying within them a dimming hope that struggles against what appears to be a history of the symbol’s signification of violence. Here we are not resigned, but we understand those who have resigned. The struggle is navigating the murkiness of a symbol that simultaneously points toward love and toward violence. Stagger one way, we can recover the symbol; stagger another way, and the liberating meaning of the symbol is lost.

In this sense, it is helpful to imagine the experience of symbolic devastation as a death of meaning. One grieves a loss. The symbol becomes a linguistic corpse. It is silent. And terrifying though this experience is, for those for whom the symbol died, there is also no going back. Devastation stretches outward from the symbol and takes hold of the person. They wonder if the symbol will ever be meaningful to them again. If it is to mean something, the previous interpretation is no longer sufficient.

III.

The experience of symbolic devastation finds expression in Mary who, as the Gospel of John tells us, approached Jesus’s tomb at dawn just a few days after his crucifixion. Jesus was her beloved teacher; and more than that, he represented the arrival of God’s reign in her world. To see the crucifixion of Jesus, then, was to witness the literal and actual death of the enfleshed symbol of God’s love. Having witnessed the brutality of the Roman empire, as it exerted its full power to expose the fragile humanity of Jesus, Mary saw her hopes and dreams come to an end. Who for her was a symbol of new life, she now believed to be a silent corpse. I imagine her weeping in the dark just before daybreak.

Many of us find ourselves in similar kinds of graveyards. What were once powerfully evocative symbols are now silent; they lie before us like corpses. They no longer speak. We tremble and weep before the possibility that there might never be a return to the fullness, a return to the reservoir of meaning that these symbols point to and that we base our lives upon.[2] Can these symbols mean something new? Can they speak to us again?

I believe they can.

My name is Colton Bernasol, a friend and essay contributor for World Outspoken. I am a follower of Jesus, somebody who believes that Jesus’s teachings, way of life, crucifixion, and resurrection reveal the presence of God in our world. And I have experienced symbolic devastation, losing the liberating meaning of Christian symbols as they have been used to justify the injustice in the world. Over the next few weeks, we will be exploring the theme of symbolic devastation. How do symbols get devastated in the first place? What does it feel like to experience the death of the meaning of the symbols we cherish and that frame our world? And how might we re-encounter the liberating meaning of these symbols after their silence?

To answer these questions, we will need to journey with two theologians who wrote and reflected in contexts that are both similar to and different from my own.[3] But before doing that, we need to go back to 1492, in the first moments when European explorers and colonizers arrived on the shores of the Caribbean and made their ways to the Americas. For it is there that we consider one symbol in particular – the cross – so that we might trace the origins of the devastation we experience today.  

Why does Symbolic devastation occur? How might we name its causes? And what does it look like to interpret Christian symbols “otherwise,” so that their liberating meaning might be rediscovered and encountered? Join me every two weeks as we work through these questions together. Find these episodes on the Mestizo Podcast feed or read the transcripts on the World Outspoken website. Though the silence of symbolic devastation is real, we can trust in the story of Mary, who, facing the silence, heard her teacher’s voice after death. Let us move forward knowing that the God of justice – Israel’s God, the one revealed in Jesus – is the God who speaks even after devastation.

Blessings until next time.

Episode Copyright 2022 - World Outspoken. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.worldoutspoken.com for more information.


Episode Credits:

Writer and Host: Colton Bernasol

Music by Lucas Manning

Producer: Lucas Manning

Executive Producer: Emanuel Padilla

Support the Mestizo Podcast by giving today.

Have a question you want answered on the podcast? Leave us a message at 312-725-2995. Leave us a 30 second voicemail with your name, city, y pregunta and we’ll discuss it on the last episode of the season. You can also submit a question using the form on this page.

Merch: Whether you want a t-shirt, hoodie, baby onesie, journal, mug, or sticker, tenemos un poquito de todo. My favorite is the recently released "Product of Abuela's Prayers" crewneck, celebrating the theology we inherit from nuestras Abuelitas. Check out our New merch store by visiting our store.

Courses: Want to take courses that prepare you to face the challenges of doing ministry in the hyphen? Visit learn.worldoutspoken.com today and enroll in one of our newest courses.

About Colton Bernasol

Colton Bernasol is an editor and writer from Plainfield, Illinois, a Southwest suburb in the Chicagoland area. He graduated from Wheaton College with a BA in Philosophy and Biblical/Theological Studies and from Garrett-Evangelical Theological Seminary with an MA in Theology and Ethics. He writes at the intersection of religion, society, and culture. Currently, he lives in Chicagoland with his wife Anna. Sign up for his newsletter, Provisional.


Footnotes

[1] These podcast episodes draw on and adapt research and writing I’ve done for my master’s thesis. See Colton R. Bernasol, "Theology After Symbolic Devastation: Method in the Liberation Theologies of Juan Luis Segundo, Jon Sobrino, and M. Shawn Copeland." Order No. 29162635, Garrett-Evangelical Theological Seminary, 2022. http://turing.library.northwestern.edu/login?url=https://www.proquest.com/dissertations-theses/theology-after-symbolic-devastation-method/docview/2675665905/se-2.

[2] This metaphor comes from philosopher Paul Ricoeur.

[3]A correction: in the podcast I mistakenly said that I would look at three theologians. While I do that in my thesis, in this podcast series, I will only be looking at two.

S3E11 - Mailbag Episode

On this final episode of the season, your hosts answer your questions about the Mestizo church, themes of the season, and tell you what is coming next for the Mestizo Podcast.

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Complete the Survey: Use this link to complete the survey and help us learn how we can better serve you.

Have a question you want answered on the podcast? Leave us a message at 312-725-2995. Leave us a 30 second voicemail with your name, city, y pregunta and we’ll discuss it on the last episode of the season. You can also submit a question using the form on this page.

Merch: Whether you want a t-shirt, hoodie, baby onesie, journal, mug, or sticker, tenemos un poquito de todo. My favorite is the recently released "Product of Abuela's Prayers" crewneck, celebrating the theology we inherit from nuestras Abuelitas. Check out our New merch store by visiting our store.

Courses: Want to take courses that prepare you to face the challenges of doing ministry in the hyphen? Visit learn.worldoutspoken.com today and enroll in one of our newest courses.

S3E10 - Regreso a Casa (Returning Home)

We sit down with Jeremy and Angelica Barahona to discuss their church plant efforts back home in West Palm Beach, Florida. We talk about why they returned home, chose to plant a new church, and the challenges they’ve faced in planting.

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Have a question you want answered on the podcast? Leave us a message at 312-725-2995. Leave us a 30 second voicemail with your name, city, y pregunta and we’ll discuss it on the last episode of the season. You can also submit a question using the form on this page.

Merch: Whether you want a t-shirt, hoodie, baby onesie, journal, mug, or sticker, tenemos un poquito de todo. My favorite is the recently released "Product of Abuela's Prayers" crewneck, celebrating the theology we inherit from nuestras Abuelitas. Check out our New merch store by visiting our store.

Courses: Want to take courses that prepare you to face the challenges of doing ministry in the hyphen? Visit learn.worldoutspoken.com today and enroll in one of our newest courses.

The Light: Learn more about The Light Church by visiting their website.

About Angelica and Jeremy Barahona

Angelica was born and raised in Venezuela. She is married to Jeremy and is the mother of Junia! When she was 15 years old, she and her family came to faith in Christ during a visit to Orlando, FL at a Latino church. She was then discipled and served at Centro Evangelistico Peniel (CEP) in Valencia, Venezuela. She holds a B.A. in International Relations from La Universidad Central de Venezuela and did community development for 5 years. In 2015, she and her family moved to the United States due to the harsh realities in her home country. This led her to get a dual M.A. in Leadership/Intercultural Studies at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School and was on staff at Oak Brook Community Church. Before planting The Light WPB, she was the Asylum Program Manager for World Relief Chicago.

Jeremy is the son of immigrant parents from El Salvador and Ecuador. He grew up in SoFlo and came to faith in Christ at a faithful Spanish-speaking church at 13 years old. He is married to Angelica and is Papi to Junia. He has a B.A. in Theology from Moody Bible Institute and an M.A. in Intercultural Studies from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. Prior to planting The Light WPB, he helped develop Pursue Scholars and was on staff at The Brook.

S3E8 - Bonds Between Us

After writing Rediscipling the White Church, Pastor David W. Swanson has gone on to be an important voice in Christian racial solidarity movements. On this episode, we sit down to talk to him about his vision for rediscipleship, why he prefers brother/sister language over “ally,” and what it means to have fellowship with rediscipled white congregations.

Support the Mestizo Podcast by giving today.

Have a question you want answered on the podcast? Leave us a message at 312-725-2995. Leave us a 30 second voicemail with your name, city, y pregunta and we’ll discuss it on the last episode of the season. You can also submit a question using the form on this page.

Merch: Whether you want a t-shirt, hoodie, baby onesie, journal, mug, or sticker, tenemos un poquito de todo. My favorite is the recently released "Product of Abuela's Prayers" crewneck, celebrating the theology we inherit from nuestras Abuelitas. Check out our New merch store by visiting our store.

Courses: Want to take courses that prepare you to face the challenges of doing ministry in the hyphen? Visit learn.worldoutspoken.com today and enroll in one of our newest courses.

Reading: Here is the link to the article by Pastor Swanson.

About Pastor Swanson

David is the founding pastor of New Community Covenant Church, a multiracial congregation on the South Side of Chicago. He also serves as the CEO of New Community Outreach, a non-profit organization working to reduce causes of trauma and raise opportunities for equity.

David’s book, Rediscipling the White Church: From Cheap Diversity to True Discipleship, is available now. Read more from David at his website, dwswanson.com.

S3E7 - Re-membering Puerto Ricans

We sit down with Dra. Teresa Deglado to talk about the personal dynamics of the diaspora, the family motivations that drove Delgado’s research, and how to recover the links between Island and Barrio. Dra. Delgado tells us why literature was so important to her decolonial theology, and we get into a little Puerto Rican history. Elizabeth and I also share some of our family stories to understand the Puerto Rican colonial condition.

Support the Mestizo Podcast by giving today.

Have a question you want answered on the podcast? Leave us a message at 312-725-2995. Leave us a 30 second voicemail with your name, city, y pregunta and we’ll discuss it on the last episode of the season. You can also submit a question using the form on this page.

Merch: Whether you want a t-shirt, hoodie, baby onesie, journal, mug, or sticker, tenemos un poquito de todo. My favorite is the recently released "Product of Abuela's Prayers" crewneck, celebrating the theology we inherit from nuestras Abuelitas. Check out our New merch store by visiting our store.

Courses: Want to take courses that prepare you to face the challenges of doing ministry in the hyphen? Visit learn.worldoutspoken.com today and enroll in one of our newest courses.

About Dra. Delgado

Teresa Delgado is Dean of St. John's College of Liberal Arts and Sciences at St. John's University. Her more recent publications include Augustine and Social Justice, co-edited with John Doody and Kim Paffenroth (2015), and contributions to Queer Christianities: Lived Religion in Transgressive Forms (2014), Reinterpreting Virtues and Values in the U.S. Public Sphere (2013), and More Than a Monologue: Sexual Diversity and the Catholic Church, Volume 1 (2013). Delgado serves on the Board of Directors for WESPAC Foundation (Westchester Peace Action Coalition) and lives in Mount Vernon, NY with her husband and their four children.

S3E6 - California Love

On this episode, we sit down with Dra. Alexia Salvatierra to discuss community development between Californios and recent immigrants, asking questions about how she manages to develop mutuality between the immigrant and citizen.

Support the Mestizo Podcast by giving today.

Have a question you want answered on the podcast? Leave us a message at 312-725-2995. Leave us a 30 second voicemail with your name, city, y pregunta and we’ll discuss it on the last episode of the season. You can also submit a question using the form on this page.

Merch: Whether you want a t-shirt, hoodie, baby onesie, journal, mug, or sticker, tenemos un poquito de todo. My favorite is the recently released "Product of Abuela's Prayers" crewneck, celebrating the theology we inherit from nuestras Abuelitas. Check out our New merch store by visiting our store.

Courses: Want to take courses that prepare you to face the challenges of doing ministry in the hyphen? Visit learn.worldoutspoken.com today and enroll in one of our newest courses.

About Dra. Salvatierra

Rev. Dr. Alexia Salvatierra is the Academic Dean of the Centro Latino and the Assistant Professor of Integral Mission and Global Transformation at Fuller Theological Seminary. She has over 40 years of experience in ministries of community transformation, in the US and internationally. She is the co-author of Faith-Rooted Organizing: Mobilizing the Church in Service to the World and Buried Seeds: Learning from the Vibrant Resilience of Marginalized Christian Communities. Her favorite title is Madrina, given to her by the rising leaders whom she mentors.

S3E5 - Mother Wants What's Best

On this bonus episode, we sit down with Jasmine Rodriguez and Micah Bournes to discuss the themes of their songs “Kiss” and “Water.” We talk about the generational resistance to black beauty and respectability politics that shaped family patterns.

Support the Mestizo Podcast by giving today.

Have a question you want answered on the podcast? Leave us a message at 312-725-2995. Leave us a 30 second voicemail with your name, city, y pregunta and we’ll discuss it on the last episode of the season. You can also submit a question using the form on this page.

Merch: Whether you want a t-shirt, hoodie, baby onesie, journal, mug, or sticker, tenemos un poquito de todo. My favorite is the recently released "Product of Abuela's Prayers" crewneck, celebrating the theology we inherit from nuestras Abuelitas. Check out our New merch store by visiting our store.

Courses: Want to take courses that prepare you to face the challenges of doing ministry in the hyphen? Visit learn.worldoutspoken.com today and enroll in one of our newest courses.

New Music: Listen to Micah Bournes music and poetry here. Listen to more of Jasmine’s music here.

About the artists

Micah Bournes is a musician and poet from Long Beach, California. His work is full of vulnerable narratives touching on themes of culture, justice, and faith. For over a decade he has toured the world performing and teaching creative writing workshops.

Jasmine is a Dominican singer songwriter born in NYC, raised in Michigan and now based out of LA. She was inspired to do music to tell her story through vulnerability, to create spaces for healing and to inspire others to face their fears. 

S3E4 - Teólogas make good Madres

Dra. Nancy Bedford’s daughter once asked, “How can I be a good mother if I’m not a theologian?” On this episode, we sit down with Dra. Bedford and discuss motherhood and vocation and how she raised hijas nepantleras.

Support the Mestizo Podcast by giving today.

Have a question you want answered on the podcast? Leave us a message at 312-725-2995. Leave us a 30 second voicemail with your name, city, y pregunta and we’ll discuss it on the last episode of the season. You can also submit a question using the form on this page.

Merch: Whether you want a t-shirt, hoodie, baby onesie, journal, mug, or sticker, tenemos un poquito de todo. My favorite is the recently released "Product of Abuela's Prayers" crewneck, celebrating the theology we inherit from nuestras Abuelitas. Check out our New merch store by visiting our store.

Courses: Want to take courses that prepare you to face the challenges of doing ministry in the hyphen? Visit learn.worldoutspoken.com today and enroll in one of our newest courses.

New Music: Listen to Audax the Damsel’s original “Beads” and more here.

About Dra. Bedford

Nancy Elizabeth Bedford, Dr. theol. (Tübingen, 1994), was born in Comodoro Rivadavia, Argentina in 1962. She has been Georgia Harkness Professor of Theology at Garrett-Evangelical Theological Seminary (Evanston) since 2003. Previously (1995-2002) she taught theology at Instituto Universitario ISEDET and Seminario Internacional Teológico Bautista (both in Buenos Aires). She has written, co-written, or edited ten books and written over 90 book chapters and journal articles, which have appeared in five languages.

Among her books are Who Was Jesus and What Does It Mean to Follow Him? (Herald Press, 2021), Galatians, A Theological Commentary (WJK, 2016) and Teología feminista a tres voces (with Virginia Azcuy and Mercedes García Bachmann; Ediciones Universidad Alberto Hurtado, 2016). The second, revised edition of Nuestra Fe. Introducción a la teología cristiana (with Guillermo Hansen) will appear in Fortress Press in Spring of 2023.

S3E3 - Loving DJ

On this episode, we sit down with Dra. Liz Rios and Rev. Hiram Rios to discuss the dynamics of raising their special needs child, DJ. We discuss parenting and ministry, the role of humor and joy in a culture of erasure, and a theology of disability.

Support the Mestizo Podcast by giving today.

Have a question you want answered on the podcast? Leave us a message at 312-725-2995. Leave us a 30 second voicemail with your name, city, y pregunta and we’ll discuss it on the last episode of the season. You can also submit a question using the form on this page.

Merch: Whether you want a t-shirt, hoodie, baby onesie, journal, mug, or sticker, tenemos un poquito de todo. My favorite is the recently released "Product of Abuela's Prayers" crewneck, celebrating the theology we inherit from nuestras Abuelitas. Check out our New merch store by visiting our store.

Courses: Want to take courses that prepare you to face the challenges of doing ministry in the hyphen? Visit learn.worldoutspoken.com today and enroll in one of our newest courses.

About the Rios Family

Liz Rios has been in ministry for over 32 years serving in various capacities in almost every area of the church including Executive Pastor and Co-Lead Pastor alongside her husband Rev. Hiram Rios. Hiram and Liz officially started in ministry in 1990. They pastored together in a local Florida church and eventually went on to plant their own until they stopped pastoring in 2016. Since then, Rev. Hiram has semi-retired to focus on his family, especially as primary caregiver to his special needs son and as a community minister via the Passion Center, where he hosts a monthly comedy show to bring laughter and joy to their South Florida community. Dr. Liz works as a Talent Acquisition Manager for Urban Strategies and as an adjunct professor and also serves as a Consulting Editor for Outreach Magazine, on the board of the National Latino Evangelical Coalition. In addition, she is a senior consultant for Freedom Road, LLC which coaches, consults, trains and designs experiences to help groups in multiple sectors do justice in just ways. Dr. Rios also serves on the Send Institute's Missiologists Council. Her work and experiences led her to start her own network Passion2Plant to encourage and support Black/Brown church planters committed to planting justice-oriented churches in urban communities right from the start. Hiram and Liz have two children, Samuel Eliu who recently graduated from Southeastern University and works part-time at Passion2Plant as Operations Assistant and Daniel Jeremiah (DJ) their "silent prophet" and special angel who has a number of ailments including epilepsy, cerebral palsy and hydrocephalus due to medical negligence. They met in church as teens and have been together for 34 years, 32 of them happily married.

S3E2 - Choosing Us and Mutual Flourishing

On this episode, we are joined by Pastor Gail Song Bantum and Dr. Brian Bantum to discuss their new book Choosing Us: Marriage and Mutual Flourishing in a world of Difference. We ask them about death and love, confession and change, and how to read the stars.

Support the Mestizo Podcast by giving today.

Have a question you want answered on the podcast? Leave us a message at 312-725-2995. Leave us a 30 second voicemail with your name, city, y pregunta and we’ll discuss it on the last episode of the season. You can also submit a question using the form on this page.

Merch: Whether you want a t-shirt, hoodie, baby onesie, journal, mug, or sticker, tenemos un poquito de todo. My favorite is the recently released "Product of Abuela's Prayers" crewneck, celebrating the theology we inherit from nuestras Abuelitas. Check out our New merch store by visiting our store.

Courses: Want to take courses that prepare you to face the challenges of doing ministry in the hyphen? Visit learn.worldoutspoken.com today and enroll in one of our newest courses.

About the Bantums

Gail Song Bantum is lead pastor at Quest Church and has created four mentoring groups nationally for women of color leaders. A nationally known speaker on topics of justice, leadership, and mentoring, she has spoken at Why Christian?, Evolving Faith, Christian Community Development Association, and the Proctor Children's Defense Fund Conference, among others.

Brian Bantum (PhD, Duke University) writes and speaks on the intersections of identity, race, and gender. He is the Neal F. and Ila A. Fisher Professor of Theology at Garrett-Evangelical Theological Seminary, a contributing editor for the Christian Century, and the author of The Death of Race: Building a New Christianity in a Racial World and Redeeming Mulatto: A Theology of Christian Hybridity.

S3E1 - Dinámicas Entre Nosotros

On this episode, we welcome you back to the show, introduce the theme for the new season, “the dynamics between us,” and forecast some of what’s coming in the season.

Support the Mestizo Podcast by giving today.

Have a question you want answered on the podcast? Leave us a message at 312-725-2995. Leave us a 30 second voicemail with your name, city, y pregunta and we’ll discuss it on the last episode of the season. You can also submit a question using the form on this page.

Merch: You can now support the show and represent la Iglesia Mestiza. Check out our New merch store by visiting our store.

Courses: Want to take courses that prepare you to face the challenges of doing ministry in the hyphen? Visit learn.worldoutspoken.com today and enroll in one of our newest courses.

Special Offer: Don’t forget that as a listener of The Mestizo Podcast, you can get 30% off + free US shipping when you shop at InterVarsity Press and use the promo code: MESTIZO.

S2E14 - BONUS Introducing La Ventanita Podcast

What would it look like if a church was planted with the expressed purpose of reaching bi-cultural, 2nd and 3rd generation Latinos? What would some of the initial challenges be? How would a pastoral team tackle them?

On this bonus episode, we introduce you to World Outspoken’s newest podcast, La Ventanita. Pull up a seat with Jeremy Barahona and Joshua Suh to hear about the process of church planting on the south end of West Palm Beach… as it’s happening. La Ventanita Podcast gives you a behind the scenes look as Jeremy and his team launch The Light WPB, a church deeply committed to the neighborhood.

Expect talk about everything from the Bible, hip-hop, and Latinidad. The episode you are about to hear gets into the honest struggle of church plant fundraising. For more episodes like this one, subscribe to La Ventanita on your favorite podcast app. And don’t forget the Mestizo Podcast returns this March 2022 with lo Bueno como siempre.

Support the Mestizo Podcast by giving today.

Purchase Brown Church: Five Centuries of Latina/o Social Justice, Theology, and Identity

Don’t forget that as a listener of The Mestizo Podcast, you can get 30% off + free US shipping when you use the promo code: MESTIZO. Don’t wait. Get a great deal on a great book, today.

S2E13 - BONUS Interview w/ Cardec Drums

On this episode, we switch things up, sitting down with 2x Dove Award Winner, Tu Premios Música Urbana winner, and co-owner of No Apologies Music, Jacob Cardec, known as Cardec Drums.  We sit down with Cardec to discuss his vision of bridging the English speaking hip hop world con la musica Cristiana Urbana. He shares his earliest experiences with the church, how he manages the tension of being between world, and the future of No Apologies Music.

Support the Mestizo Podcast by giving today.

Follow Cardec Drums on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cardecdrums/

Follow No Apologies Music: https://www.instagram.com/noapologiesmusic/

Purchase Brown Church: Five Centuries of Latina/o Social Justice, Theology, and Identity

Don’t forget that as a listener of The Mestizo Podcast, you can get 30% off + free US shipping when you use the promo code: MESTIZO. Don’t wait. Get a great deal on a great book, today.

You can also register here to join Dr. Robert Chao Romero on THURSDAY, FEB 3 (2PM ET / 1 PM CT / 11 AM PT) for a webinar titled Developing Christian Leaders with Seminary Now.

Have a question you want answered on the podcast? Leave us a message at 312-725-2995. Leave us a 30 second voicemail with your name, city, y pregunta and we’ll discuss it on the last episode of the season. You can also submit a question using the form on this page.

S2E12 - BONUS Mixed Take Crossover

Today we introduce you to one of World Outspoken’s other amazing podcasts, Mixed Take. On this podcast Robert Rivera and Donielle Alicea discuss how the mixing of cultures and heritages in the US - influence film, television, and other forms of media and entertainment.

On this episode, Doni and Robert interview actor and singer Jennifer Hudson and director Liesl Tommy on their film RESPECT. Doni and Robert also have interviews with actor, singer, and fellow Boricua, Robin De Jesus, actor Jimmy Gonzalez, and other episodes dealing with the ways the media landscape is changing.

Check out Mixed Take on your favorite podcast app for more episodes like the one you’re about to hear. Oh and…

If you haven’t heard of the book Brown Church, you’ll want to get yourself a copy today. Robert Chao Romero, the son of a Mexican father and a Chinese immigrant mother, explores the history and theology the “Brown Church.”

Romero considers how for five hundred years, Latina/o culture and identity have been shaped by their challenges to religious, socioeconomic, and political status quo, and takes readers through this history of activism and faith in the Latina/o church. Brown Church appeals to the vision for redemption, which includes not only heavenly promises but also the transformation of our lives and the world.

Get your copy today at ivpress.com. And as a listener of The Mestizo Podcast, you can get 30% off + free US shipping when you use the promo code: MESTIZO. Don’t wait. Get a great deal on a great book, today.


Support the Mestizo Podcast by giving today.

Have a question you want answered on the podcast? Leave us a message at 312-725-2995. Leave us a 30 second voicemail with your name, city, y pregunta and we’ll discuss it on the last episode of the season. You can also submit a question using the form on this page.

S2E11 - BONUS Atando Cabos

On this bonus episode, we hear from our sister and madrina, Elizabeth Conde-Frazier about her newest book, Atando Cabos: Latinx Contributions to Theological Education. We discuss the loose ends she explores, the importance of respect, and what we can all learn about how education is changing from the margins.

Support the Mestizo Podcast by giving today.

Learn more about the The 2021 Justo and Catherine Gonzalez Lecture Series here.

Purchase Atando Cabos en Español here.

Have a question you want answered on the podcast? Leave us a message at 312-725-2995. Leave us a 30 second voicemail with your name, city, y pregunta and we’ll discuss it on the last episode of the season. You can also submit a question using the form on this page.

S2E10 - Mixed Mailbag

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A special season ending episode of el Mestizo Podcast, the show for the mixed people of the mixed church. On this episode, your hosts answer your questions about the Mestizo church, themes of the season, and tell you what is coming next for the Mestizo Podcast.

Support the Mestizo Podcast by giving today.

Have a question you want answered on the podcast? Leave us a message at 312-725-2995. Leave us a 30 second voicemail with your name, city, y pregunta and we’ll discuss it on the last episode of the season. You can also submit a question using the form on this page.

Curious about Emanuel’s rapper days? Listen to Legacia today.

S2 - Special Announcement

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Today we were set to release our last episode of the second season, our mail bag episode, where we answer your preguntas and wrap the discussions & themes of the season. Elizabeth and I are both at a conference over the next two weeks, so we are putting a pause on that episode. But not to worry, todavia tenemos algo bueno para ti.

This Monday, June 21st at 6:30 CST we are hosting the final webinar of the season. In this webinar, we’ll hear from the pastoral staff of Church of the City, New London. They’ll share the story of how their church transitioned from a Spanish-language-only, traditional migrant church to a multi-ethnic church that embraced the generations of Latinos born in the US. This webinar will give you a real life case study of a church that went through many of the challenges and changes we’ve discussed in the first season of the podcast.

Listeners of the Mestizo Podcast can now register for the webinar for only $15.00. Go to www.worldoutspoken.com/webinars and clicking register today. You won’t want to miss the opportunity to gather with other listeners, hear a testimony from this church, AND ask questions in real time.

We’ll be back with the final episode of season 2 on July 7th, after the break for the holiday. Before I go, I have two other announcements. First, I want to ask you to help us defeat the algorithm. If you haven’t already, subscribe to the podcast on Apple podcast and leave us a review. It really does help. Second, you can also now give to support the Mestizo Podcast. World Outspoken is a non-profit ministry that puts together these excellent resources for the church. You can help us continue the Mestizo podcast by going to www.worldoutspoken.com/give-now and clicking on the give now button on the top right. There are several ways to give, and some will get you access to bonus material from our team. Esto se hace en conjunto. Gracias por tu apoyo.

Talk to you again soon. Bendiciones.

S2E8 - Being Latino in Christ

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On this episode, we are joined by Rev. Orlando Crespo, National Director of LaFe at InterVarsity. We revisit his groundbreaking book Being Latino in Christ: Finding Wholeness in your Ethnic Identity nearly twenty years later. We ask him how the last twenty years have expanded his insights, what he would change, and how to bring reconciliation between white and afro-latinos, Latino immigrants and their diaspora children.

Support the Mestizo Podcast by giving today.

Have a question you want answered on the podcast? Leave us a message at 312-725-2995. Leave us a 30 second voicemail with your name, city, y pregunta and we’ll discuss it on the last episode of the season. You can also submit a question using the form on this page.

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About Rev. Orlando Crespo

Orlando Crespo is national director of InterVarsity Latino Fellowship (LAFE). He has worked with InterVarsity since 1987, first as a campus staff member at Hunter College and City College in New York City, New York, and then as an area director for a group of colleges in New York City. He was one of the founders of New Life in the Bronx Church, and he still serves there as an associate pastor.

S2E7 - A More Complicated Mix

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On this episode we are joined by friends and family who are of "mixed" heritage. Their mestizaje is not coming from the historical mix but a more recent inter-mixed family.  Our panel of modern mestizos speak about how they navigate this for themselves and what it is that they find along their journey as they live with people who may not understand their mixedness. So, sientase en casa, make yourself at home, and let’s get started.

Support the Mestizo Podcast by giving today.

Have a question you want answered on the podcast? Leave us a message at 312-725-2995. Leave us a 30 second voicemail with your name, city, y pregunta and we’ll discuss it on the last episode of the season. You can also submit a question using the form on this page.

 

Meet Our Guests

Learn more about Dr. Cartagena here.

Learn more about Dr. Cartagena here.

Dr. Nathan Cartagena

Assistant Professor of Philosophy at Wheaton College (IL), where he teach courses on race, justice, and political philosophy.  He also serves as the faculty advisor for Unidad Cristiana, a student group working to enhance Christian unity and celebrate Latina/o cultures. A committed churchman, he seeks to answer a vexing question: What should discipleship and sanctification look like in a racialized world?

 
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Natalia Kohn Rivera

Special projects coordinator for InterVarsity's LaFe ministry and campus staff in southern California and also serves on staff at the Pasadena International House of Prayer, where she trains people in prayer and worship and leads teams on trips to the Middle East. She was born in Argentina and grew up in the United States as a biracial Latina.

Learn more about Natalia here.

 
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Dr. Robert Chao Romero

Rev. Dr. Robert Chao Romero is "Asian-Latino," and has been a professor of Chicana/o Studies and Asian American Studies at UCLA since 2005.  He received his Ph.D. from UCLA in Latin American History and his Juris Doctor from U.C. Berkeley.  Romero is award winning writer, publishing 15 academic books and articles on issues of race, immigration, history, education, and religion.

Check out Dr. Chao Romero’s newest project.

 
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Evangelina Morales

Evangelina Morales holds a Masters of Education from Concordia University. She has published articles on the topic of diversity and working with children. She is currently a Spanish teacher and Diversity coordinator for Prestonwood Christian Academy.